Stories that left you disappointed for a reason

[LtheStoryteller]

I could understand disliking how MC behaves like a complete noob sometimes and behaves like a teenager especially when it comes to Aeran but their argument is based on not being able to whatever they want when they want to do it.

I think this is blowing it out a bit of proportion Since that's literally impossible in any IF/WIP

You can't kill (on your own) the powerful boss with making specific choices, you can't mouth off your (potential) employer (and she is unfortunately of them) without suffering consequences including the potential loss of your job that's gonna pay you enough to potentially retire and Qiqi's very introduction in the prologue was him rage baiting everyone.

You're treated badly by all the mages because it got established in the very prologue and constantly enforced that mages and wayfarers don't get along. Mages in the order have an ego problem and with the loss of the order, you no longer have any leverage against them. That and you're kinda trapped in their city with no way to get out without help (which means keeping your mouth shut until you get your money and are able to leave).

It feels like you can't do anything and everyone's trying to screw you over and walking all over you because that's exactly what's happening. That's the point, it's supposed to be frustrating.

And ****, I mean if the game was made to be like that, then that's just how it is, but this is not, from what I'm thinking, what @Gone_Dead was trying to say, at least not like this. Let me elaborate

You say you can't kill a powerful boss on your own, and no one said anything about that. What was talked about, is how you can actually kill him. From what I understand, it's about kissing his *** and whatnot, but the point there was that it's not that anyone is bothered by MC not being powerful enough to do that, but that they are treated like the absolute dog ****, and that they can't do anything about it. The only way to kill him is to suck up to him, which shouldn't be the only way to get him, and that's that point.
The next point is badmouthing, which true, I agree, none of these things should go without consequences, but there are ways to lower the chances of you getting ****ed by that decision, and that's by being smart about it. The mechanic could go that if you do x y z, you could bad mouth them and get away with it, and not just get ****ed regardless of what you do.

As for the mage politics and all that, I mean ****, I haven't played so I can't say anything about that. I can only comment on what I gather from what's being said, but there should be a way to leave without having to rely on the money from your employer. Some route where you can escape, without you having to rely on absolutely everyone around you, especially if it's true when it was mentioned that MC used to roam around on their own and survive by hunting monsters and whatever. That would imply that MC is quite capable on their own, and could potentially find their way out.

And it's fine that everyone is trying to screw the MC over, but why not allow MC to go their own way then? Why would they stay with the ones who constantly want something from them and treat them like ****? I get it, extra branching and story direction, but ****. If that's what has to be done, than it has to be done, otherwise we get a story that's divided by the public like this, and both sides are correct in terms of how the story is and feels

You're creating your story, making it seem like something i said and using it as counter statement. All you're saying is "you just want power fantasy" and you refuse to budge from that despite me explaining myself why it has nothing to do with power fantasy. I even gave a really good example using TGR. I really don't want to explain myself again. If that's what you get from the walls of text I wrote to explain myself, then I can't really say anything that'll convince you. @LtheStoryteller got my point and I hope others did too.

I think I explained it perfectly then, and have elaborated further now, so it should be good

 

[yourstalkeroutside]

Thought excercise: let's say a lvl 1 adventurer is facing a lvl 99 evil wizard. The wizard says, grovel at my feet or die from the Spell of Doom I have prepared.
Does the adventurer count as incompetent if their only way to survive is to grovel, which they do?

It's more of a lvl 70 adventurer Vs a lvl 100 evil wizard situation. At lvl 70, you're pretty experienced and some may even call you a veteran but you're still massively under leveled for this boss. It can't one shot you but you're definitely going to lose the fight especially since you have a major debuff activated that is lowering your stats.

Do you take your chances on attacking the boss despite the spell of doom? Or is it better to grovel at his feet and then attack when his guard is lowered?

The wayfarer situation is literally the latter.

 

[LtheStoryteller]

It's more of a lvl 70 adventurer Vs a lvl 100 evil wizard situation. At lvl 70, you're pretty experienced and some may even call you a veteran but you're still massively under leveled for this boss. It can't one shot you but you're definitely going to lose the fight especially since you have a major debuff activated that is lowering your stats.

Do you take your chances on attacking the boss despite the spell of doom? Or is it better to grovel at his feet and then attack when his guard is lowered?

The wayfarer situation is literally the latter.

This how my lvl1 MC gon go

 

[Zoklitsos]

Meanwhile, I'm lowkey tired of the angsty, damaged MCs that are ~so specul~ and whom ROs are supposed to pity and dote on. Mind you, TGR still has some of the best writing I have seen. But this setup is right below therapy speak among the things I really do not like.

I'm a bit confused about your point haha? Because I generally speaking, I agree with both of those things 100%, and from other discussions we've had in this thread, I also usually tend to share your opinions lol. So maybe I'm just misunderstanding you, but are you saying that TGR MC falls under the "angsty, damaged MCs that are ~so specul~ and whom ROs are supposed to pity and dote on" category? Because if so, I genuinely never got that impression and I just don't see it? If anything, I feel like it's the opposite? I mean, I guess you can make your MC like that if you want to. But I don't think the whole angsty, depressed, moping things is forced on the MC by default. Like, obviously it's kinda set that the MC is grieving their mother which is pretty normal and that they're scared of the Inquisition finding them, but I don't think that's something that's particularly egregious haha? And I don't really remember the game focusing too much on the MC's "angst" unless you went out of your way to pick up those options, or having an excessive focus on the ROs pitying you or coddling you. But I get that we all have different tastes and different ways of viewing things.

 

[yourstalkeroutside]

You're creating your story, making it seem like something i said and using it as counter statement. All you're saying is "you just want power fantasy" and you refuse to budge from that despite me explaining myself why it has nothing to do with power fantasy. I even gave a really good example using TGR. I really don't want to explain myself again. If that's what you get from the walls of text I wrote to explain myself, then I can't really say anything that'll convince you. @LtheStoryteller got my point and I hope others did too.

And I'm pointing out why your argument doesn't make sense within the context of the game. Anything else would be within the realm of it becoming a power fantasy.

TGR is comparing apples with oranges. TGR MC isn't getting screwed over by their own allies and everyone else around them. Wayfarer MC is.

It says a lot that the one agreeing with you hasn't played the game and does not know the context of it.

 

[Gone_Dead]

I think this is blowing it out a bit of proportion Since that's literally impossible in any IF/WIP

And ****, I mean if the game was made to be like that, then that's just how it is, but this is not, from what I'm thinking, what @Gone_Dead was trying to say, at least not like this. Let me elaborate

You say you can't kill a powerful boss on your own, and no one said anything about that. What was talked about, is how you can actually kill him. From what I understand, it's about kissing his *** and whatnot, but the point there was that it's not that anyone is bothered by MC not being powerful enough to do that, but that they are treated like the absolute dog ****, and that they can't do anything about it. The only way to kill him is to suck up to him, which shouldn't be the only way to get him, and that's that point.
The next point is badmouthing, which true, I agree, none of these things should go without consequences, but there are ways to lower the chances of you getting ****ed by that decision, and that's by being smart about it. The mechanic could go that if you do x y z, you could bad mouth them and get away with it, and not just get ****ed regardless of what you do.

As for the mage politics and all that, I mean ****, I haven't played so I can't say anything about that. I can only comment on what I gather from what's being said, but there should be a way to leave without having to rely on the money from your employer. Some route where you can escape, without you having to rely on absolutely everyone around you, especially if it's true when it was mentioned that MC used to roam around on their own and survive by hunting monsters and whatever. That would imply that MC is quite capable on their own, and could potentially find their way out.

And it's fine that everyone is trying to screw the MC over, but why not allow MC to go their own way then? Why would they stay with the ones who constantly want something from them and treat them like ****? I get it, extra branching and story direction, but ****. If that's what has to be done, than it has to be done, otherwise we get a story that's divided by the public like this, and both sides are correct in terms of how the story is and feels

I think I explained it perfectly then, and have elaborated further now, so it should be good

The story is written in a way which forces us to be in a helpless situation. We are coerced to sign a pact with the mages, and are taken by them to their city. There we have to do their bidding and they will pay us and send us on our way. But guess what? There is no counterbalance to this. The story goes like this basically,

1. MC is forced to complete a contract to get funds and escape the city
2. MC completes the contract or not and gets ****ed over anyway.
3. Add doses of bending over for anyone and everyone you see.
4. 2 mages save you if you allegedly **** up. You happen to owe them, and this are again forced to complete another contract for them this time.
5. Add more doses of bending over and getting insulted by the new part for the crime of asking questions and objecting. No chance to defend your honour or anything, since you apparently don't have it.
6. Arrive at their city, immediately are forced to have a long one on one with the most obnoxious character of the IF. Told to bend over for him. You do as asked, but you get angry anyway cuz the story suddenly realised MC has pride and emotions.
7. Then you're confined to your quarters, even the servants throw stink eye and insult you while you can't do **** to retort.
8. You are asked to attend a ball, you have a choice to refuse but it's a fake choice cuz **** the MC more.
9. You meet another servent girl who insults you, cuts your hair and beard and clothes you while you sit like a moron.
10. You attend the ball and surprising, the place with a lot of mages and nobles is where the MC is insulted the least and it's because MC is useful to them.
11. You meet obnoxious mage again and he mocks you and belittles you while you take it like a good boy.

This is as far as I got. I'll say the ball is objectively better than the rest of the story not because the MC shows some spine, just cuz the MC is insulted less and as a result isn't forced to take all said insults like an idiot.

 

[LtheStoryteller]

It says a lot that the one agreeing with you hasn't played the game and does not know the context of it.

But I'm taking everyone's context And I think I explained nicely what they meant in that one other post of mine
I like to depend and almost completely rely on my deduction skills and information gathering

Though in all honesty, I refrained from playing Wayfarer yet, because I'm not allowed to be the angel race thing, instead just some halfling thing. Also elves aren't what they're supposed to be, which is also a bummer

The story is written in a way which forces us to be in a helpless situation. We are coerced to sign a pact with the mages, and are taken by them to their city. There we have to do their bidding and they will pay us and send us on our way. But guess what? There is no counterbalance to this. The story goes like this basically,

1. MC is forced to complete a contract to get funds and escape the city
2. MC completes the contract or not and gets ****ed over anyway.
3. Add doses of bending over for anyone and everyone you see.
4. 2 mages save you if you allegedly **** up. You happen to owe them, and this are again forced to complete another contract for them this time.
5. Add more doses of bending over and getting insulted by the new part for the crime of asking questions and objecting. No chance to defend your honour or anything, since you apparently don't have it.
6. Arrive at their city, immediately are forced to have a long one on one with the most obnoxious character of the IF. Told to bend over for him. You do as asked, but you get angry anyway cuz the story suddenly realised MC has pride and emotions.
7. Then you're confined to your quarters, even the servants throw stink eye and insult you while you can't do **** to retort.
8. You are asked to attend a ball, you have a choice to refuse but it's a fake choice cuz **** the MC more.
9. You meet another servent girl who insults you, cuts your hair and beard and clothes you while you sit like a moron.
10. You attend the ball and surprising, the place with a lot of mages and nobles is where the MC is insulted the least and it's because MC is useful to them.
11. You meet obnoxious mage again and he mocks you and belittles you while you take it like a good boy.

This is as far as I got. I'll say the ball is objectively better than the rest of the story not because the MC shows some spine, just cuz the MC is insulted less and as a result isn't forced to take all said insults like an idiot.

And I mean hell, @yourstalkeroutside this is the thing. I am presented with this, and multiple people on here said that the story goes like that (in terms of MC getting absolutely ****ed xD)
I respect the fact that you said that the story is meant to be like that. But what I was trying to explain is, that there should be a way for the story to deviate from that. Otherwise, it's just a linear story where your MC gets ****ed regardless, and sure, the whole point of the story is that, but that just brings us to the aforementioned argument of majority of writers liking to **** on their MCs and make them a wet blanket.
At least this is what I gather, so take it as is

 

[Gone_Dead]

And I'm pointing out why your argument doesn't make sense within the context of the game. Anything else would be within the realm of it becoming a power fantasy.

TGR is comparing apples with oranges. TGR MC isn't getting screwed over by their own allies and everyone else around them. Wayfarer MC is.

It says a lot that the one agreeing with you hasn't played the game and does not know the context of it.

Lmao I said my piece. I literally said 'counterbalance' multiple times. The story tips only one way. It's like the exile where every nth sentence you're reminded of you angsty past and how you have no wings and how you're powerless and how miserable you are. The story completely force feeds you a cup of hot coffee, your mouth is burning after drinking it once. But if you take it in sips tho, it's more tasteful and satisfactory.

 

[yourstalkeroutside]

And it's fine that everyone is trying to screw the MC over, but why not allow MC to go their own way then? Why would they stay with the ones who constantly want something from them and treat them like ****? I get it, extra branching and story direction, but ****. If that's what has to be done, than it has to be done, otherwise we get a story that's divided by the public like this, and both sides are correct in terms of how the story is and feels

The plot. And besides, the whole situation where you're forced to find an alternative means to leave Velintris is actually a route in the story. Either you can reject the mage guild's offer when they present it to you at the party or you can be rejected by them (either because they think you're compromised, unable to do it or because you got drunk).

Three things are essential to the plot: You're currently stuck on Velintris, you argue with Aeran and you get backstabbed. Everything else changes based on choices and skill checks.

 

[LtheStoryteller]

Lmao I said my piece. I literally said 'counterbalance' multiple times. The story tips only one way. It's like the exile where every nth sentence you're reminded of you angsty past and how you have no wings and how you're powerless and how miserable you are. The story completely force feeds you a cup of hot coffee, your mouth is burning after drinking it once. But if you take it in sips tho, it's more tasteful and satisfactory.

Yeeeah, as much as I like The Exile, it does lay it on thick, how you were once the strongest and greatest, but now you're just a little bi*ch Though even that little ***** can still hold their own, as shown when fighting those Gorgons and other times, so yeah, I'll let it slide there

The plot. And besides, the whole situation where you're forced to find an alternative means to leave Velintris is actually a route in the story. Either you can reject the mage guild's offer when they present it to you at the party or you can be rejected by them (either because they think you're compromised, unable to do it or because you got drunk).

Three things are essential to the plot: You're currently stuck on Velintris, you argue with Aeran and you get backstabbed. Everything else changes based on choices and skill checks.

I just have extreme freedom of choice in mind (due to my work) but yeah, I understand story going one way, and one way only.
But if I disregard that, even when there is a singular goal to where the MC needs to go, it can be done in a plethora of ways. Make MC a wet wipe or make them actually seem better than that, while both of those still leading to the same plot points

 

[yourstalkeroutside]

Lmao I said my piece. I literally said 'counterbalance' multiple times. The story tips only one way. It's like the exile where every nth sentence you're reminded of you angsty past and how you have no wings and how you're powerless and how miserable you are. The story completely force feeds you a cup of hot coffee, your mouth is burning after drinking it once. But if you take it in sips tho, it's more tasteful and satisfactory.

>Comparing Wayfarer to the Exile

 

[Gone_Dead]

I have no problem with linearity like i said before. It is absolutely needed considering the story or the workload of the author. Im saying that the least they can do is make the MC outshine others they are with every now and then. Give MC their moments. The MC has no hard moment for themself to shine till so far. And when there is one, nobody acknowledges it. These are small things. I dont want the MC to solo anyone and everyone to assert their dominance, just small battles of wit and charisma here and there. The author could have easily given us a small moment to render Quirinus speechless but no, they would rather the MC be helpless in that aspect and every other. There is this moment in the prologue where kid MC meets Quirinus and we can fluster him by refusing to entertain his questions with concrete answers. We see the Wayfarer masters and grandmasters reacting to it with smiles. Small things like this is what i ask to counterbalance the unfavourable circumstance of the story. Just to assert that the MC is not helplessly following everyone like it actually is. It doesnt even have to be frequent. I'm capable of noticing moments like that seeing how i spoke about it here.

 

[yourstalkeroutside]

I just have extreme freedom of choice in mind (due to my work) but yeah, I understand story going one way, and one way only.
But if I disregard that, even when there is a singular goal to where the MC needs to go, it can be done in a plethora of ways. Make MC a wet wipe or make them actually seem better than that, while both of those still leading to the same plot points

Yeah I could understand, but context and setting are also important. There's only so much one can realistically do in any situation.
There's also the problem with plot and where the author wants the story to go.

Not every MC that's passive or stuck in shitty situations are wet wipe MCs, and Wayfarer MC is one of those that aren't.

That's why I pointed out that you haven't played the game. Because then you'd understand why Gone Dead's full of ****.

 

[Gone_Dead]

>Comparing Wayfarer to the Exile

I gave an analogy, not a comparison. Its up to you to disproportionate it. I also gave another sentence which closely resembles my argument.

 

[yourstalkeroutside]

Give MC their moments. The MC has no hard moment for themself to shine till so far.

MC does 90% of the legwork in Rona finding the chalice(unless you get injured early) and when getting the staff, takes the lead in the interview and with the Vivdian Lady and makes the majority of the calls between themselves and Aeran. Also can be the one who kills a basilisk and the Count back to back (if you made the right choices).

Wayfarer's MC isn't a moping wet cat getting carried by everyone around them.

 

[Gone_Dead]

MC does 90% of the legwork in Rona finding the chalice(unless you get injured early) and when getting the staff, takes the lead in the interview and with the Vivdian Lady and makes the majority of the calls between themselves and Aeran. Also can be the one who kills a basilisk and the Count back to back (if you made the right choices).

Wayfarer's MC isn't a moping wet cat getting carried by everyone around them.

Again you're taking specific sentences and misinterpreting my response, conveniently ignored the next sentence after that. I acknowledged MC is competent long ago but you're still rinsing that subject again and again.

 

[seneya]

But I don't think the whole angsty, depressed, moping things is forced on the MC by default.

Fair enough, I think I mostly got it from a couple side-stories I read. It's one of those things I might be overtly sensitive to.

Small things like this is what i ask to counterbalance the unfavourable circumstance of the story. Just to assert that the MC is not helplessly following everyone like it actually is.

Let me preface this by saying that I got your point. You want MC to have those small moments to shine -
you acknowledge MC as being helpless for the moment. I think it is the point; you are meant to be frustrated. It is not the time to shine yet, it is part of the overall atmosphere of, I dunno... helplessness lol. A part of the problem might be exactly that the game isn't done yet, so if there's to be a counterbalance in the future that you wish for, well, for now we just cannot see it. And the RNG, yeah.
But also it's possible that this assumption is wrong and WF is simply "not this kind of story" where MC gets big shiny moments for themself. Maybe their biggest achievement will be to survive to the end in one piece lol. It would be more of a story of struggle and survival in this case, which is fair to dislike. Just entirely different atmosphere and power dynamics. Sometimes, one can be proud of just making it out and through, even if it doesn't wow anyone.
So really it comes back to different strokes, etcetera.

This how my lvl1 MC gon go

Yeah, and then you're dead, and the story's over. A character that mouths off to those more powerful (physically, magically, socially...) than them without any consequences is a textbook Mary Sue. Sometimes, keeping your mouth shut is a smart thing to do.
Now no one said the inner narration has to stay quiet and polite...

 

[Gone_Dead]

Let me preface this by saying that I got your point. You want MC to have those small moments to shine -
you acknowledge MC as being helpless for the moment. I think it is the point; you are meant to be frustrated. It is not the time to shine yet, it is part of the overall atmosphere of, I dunno... helplessness lol. A part of the problem might be exactly that the game isn't done yet, so if there's to be a counterbalance in the future that you wish for, well, for now we just cannot see it. And the RNG, yeah.

Wouldn't that mean that the MC is useless outside of being a magic nullifier? I feel like the MC has no personality outside of being a tool for others. No subplot for MC, MC doesn't even deign to investigate what happened to their order. MC just feels like a plot device to me. Although I understand what you're saying in the larger picture. I'm still playing the IF and I plan to finish it cuz I actually like the setting and hope for an true change to the tone. But that doesn't mean I shouldn't air out the misgivings i have. I feel like most of my concerns are fair. At the end of the day this is no DnD campaign. It's IF heavily inspired by classic RPG mechanics. It has a story and a 'main character' I've almost finished 2 chapters and I still don't see the importance of the MC which any other wayfarer could have done including Aeran.

Now no one said the inner narration has to stay quiet and polite...

Funny you say that lol, I talked about this too.

 

[LtheStoryteller]

Yeah, and then you're dead, and the story's over. A character that mouths off to those more powerful (physically, magically, socially...) than them without any consequences is a textbook Mary Sue. Sometimes, keeping your mouth shut is a smart thing to do.
Now no one said the inner narration has to stay quiet and polite...

And I'll die like a foking legend But nah, I get you, though if my mc was ever in that situation, I'd just invoke Jester's privilege (if you know, you know)

 

[seneya]

classic RPG mechanics

any other wayfarer could have done including Aeran

Funnily enough I thought of like... Might and Magic, or Icewind Dale. Y'know, where you create the entire party yourself and they have no personalities of their own - interchangeable not-special adventurers that still go on to do big things.

Wouldn't that mean that the MC is useless outside of being a magic nullifier? I feel like the MC has no personality outside of being a tool for others.

This being a special trait, that's what gonna make them stand out and what people are gonna focus on. MC can, theoretically, eventually start using it to their advantage, too, not just someone else's. Their entire path can be (I mean that as a guess, as I'm not the author) at least partly about stopping being a tool and claiming agency for themself. Right now, they are lost, but they can grow.

Funny you say that lol, I talked about this too.

I missed it, then.
It might be difficult to handle inner narration for largely customizable/blank-slate MCs, which is why it might not be used as much as with the more set MCs. One more reason I prefer partially-set personalities.