Stories that left you disappointed for a reason

[Gone_Dead]

You guys don't understand. I did say MC was incompetent at first because the branching is so unnecessarily maze like. It's infuriating to pick the right order of choices just to get a sliver of information or to pick the perfect choices in order to even have a chance to fight a character head on. And this isn't even consistent, only a couple of segment has insane branching and the others are tame like most if. It takes so much of my immersion out when I save scum so much more than choosing choices. And that fight isn't even satisfying after all the insults and humiliation your character endures. There's also the fact that literally every character acts like they are superior, insults the MC and manhandles them while they just stand and 'go silent' like a spineless bufoon. Nova insults the MC 100 times? Here is this one unfunny choice you can choose as a retort for recompense while she continues to do so and MC says nothing to defend themself. MC is coerced to do a contract? Don't even put efforts into your retorts, arguments, get verbally schooled and take it like a good boy. Stay calm and nod along with the Archsage? Lose control anyway cuz he insulted your order. What irony.

The MC has a doormat personality or lack thereof. I did say MC was incompetent yes, but that was before I knew we had to solve an integral equation to get favourable outcomes. If the author doesn't respect the MC, why should we? It's clear the author priorities fleshing out their 'side' characters more. I am reading an IF, not a novel. Im going to play as a certain character and make decisions on their behalf. But there is no certain character it's just a blank paper where we just write the choices we choose. You know who the MC shows their spine to? roadside thugs, thieves and kids.

I can already see a few more come here and say "you just want a power fantasy" after everything I've said. Is it so bad to want a power fantasy tho? It's not like we're reading fiction or anything? Which is a means for escapism? Means to roleplay a person we could never be or restrictions make it difficult to be. That doesn't mean I always want a power fantasy, I played and enjoyed plenty of IFs which wasn't a power fantasy. If situation were different I'd be telling " you just want to play a doormat MC". But it isn't ig.

 

[seneya]

Is it so bad to want a power fantasy tho?

Nope, but it's kind of senseless to complain about a game not being a power fantasy when it, well, isn't. That's why I said such things are a matter of taste.
Further on, MC being competent does not necessary equal power fantasy. Competent people still fail, and being competent at something doesn't equal being competent at everything - it's being competent at everything that brings us to a power fantasy. Also, Wayfarer's "thing" is that its skill checks introduce a level of RNG that, well, can screw you over just because, which is fair to dislike; but by itself should probably be taken as more "life screwing you over" than "MC being incompetent".

 

[Gone_Dead]

Nope, but it's kind of senseless to complain about a game not being a power fantasy when it, well, isn't.

I didnt tho. A bunch of you are claiming so.

MC being competent does not necessary equal power fantasy. Competent people still fail, and being competent at something doesn't equal being competent at everything - it's being competent at everything that brings us to a power fantasy.

I dont know what this is supposed to address. I thought i clarified myself.

Also, Wayfarer's "thing" is that its skill checks introduce a level of RNG that, well, can screw you over just because, which is fair to dislike; but by itself should probably be taken as more "life screwing you over" than "MC being incompetent".

Again, i dont really understand which of my complains you're addressing. I dont really have problem with the nature of the stat checks.

 

[LtheStoryteller]

You guys don't understand. I did say MC was incompetent at first because the branching is so unnecessarily maze like. It's infuriating to pick the right order of choices just to get a sliver of information or to pick the perfect choices in order to even have a chance to fight a character head on. And this isn't even consistent, only a couple of segment has insane branching and the others are tame like most if. It takes so much of my immersion out when I save scum so much more than choosing choices. And that fight isn't even satisfying after all the insults and humiliation your character endures. There's also the fact that literally every character acts like they are superior, insults the MC and manhandles them while they just stand and 'go silent' like a spineless bufoon. Nova insults the MC 100 times? Here is this one unfunny choice you can choose as a retort for recompense while she continues to do so and MC says nothing to defend themself. MC is coerced to do a contract? Don't even put efforts into your retorts, arguments, get verbally schooled and take it like a good boy. Stay calm and nod along with the Archsage? Lose control anyway cuz he insulted your order. What irony.

The MC has a doormat personality or lack thereof. I did say MC was incompetent yes, but that was before I knew we had to solve an integral equation to get favourable outcomes. If the author doesn't respect the MC, why should we? It's clear the author priorities fleshing out their 'side' characters more. I am reading an IF, not a novel. Im going to play as a certain character and make decisions on their behalf. But there is no certain character it's just a blank paper where we just write the choices we choose. You know who the MC shows their spine to? roadside thugs, thieves and kids.

I can already see a few more come here and say "you just want a power fantasy" after everything I've said. Is it so bad to want a power fantasy tho? It's not like we're reading fiction or anything? Which is a means for escapism? Means to roleplay a person we could never be or restrictions make it difficult to be. That doesn't mean I always want a power fantasy, I played and enjoyed plenty of IFs which wasn't a power fantasy. If situation were different I'd be telling " you just want to play a doormat MC". But it isn't ig.

Wait until I release chapter 1 to The Dark Crown (and not just the current prologue) and you'll have a chance to see how a RPG game is supposed to be done, and how you can be extremely powerful without it being a power fantasy.
Also, I get you. It's not that you want a power fantasy, because what you are saying and asking for, is quite some ways different than a thing like Dao or something.
Power fantasy is you being the strongest being in the story, and can do whatever you want.
But what you want, is to have the liberty to make your character how you wish, and still be competent enough, and strong enough at the end of the day, to have favourable moment in the story, and not being forced to go a specific route, so you can only then get the favourable outcomes. Because that's linear way of writing, where they give you the illusion of choice, when in reality there is none.
And sure, they may say that it's okay to fail with certain choices, and true, it is, but I think that, as a writer, you need to write things that you also don't want. At least that's what I do, and that's what I think everyone should do.
So just because you don't want to make MC a certain way, because of your personal preference, you need to take into account that some people would want to go that way, and so you write it. I understand that this leads to insane branching (too familiar with this, if my 470k word prologue without code is any indicator), but that's how IFs should be, and what makes them fun

Nope, but it's kind of senseless to complain about a game not being a power fantasy when it, well, isn't. That's why I said such things are a matter of taste.
Further on, MC being competent does not necessary equal power fantasy. Competent people still fail, and being competent at something doesn't equal being competent at everything - it's being competent at everything that brings us to a power fantasy. Also, Wayfarer's "thing" is that its skill checks introduce a level of RNG that, well, can screw you over just because, which is fair to dislike; but by itself should probably be taken as more "life screwing you over" than "MC being incompetent".

If the game functions like a DnD RNG type of thing, then the game is not for the person talking about it, true, because from what I can tell, they would like some good ol regular RPG, something like the Souls games, but still. They didn't like how it was made, and they said that, and explained why. The thread is called "Stories that left you disappointed for a reason", so it fits the idea of the thread.
Though I think that you're missing their point. Their point was not that their MC is just completely incompetent, but the fact that MC gets belittled and dragged around like a rag doll. That the MC lacks a spine, and that is used as a punching bag, without ever being offered a chance to step up for themselves. I think that that's the main problem that Gone_Dead is presenting, and not exactly the fact that it's not a power fantasy

 

[jaded]

It’s boring to read about a protagonist who lacks personality and skills, and who is rescued, exploited or overshadowed by the supporting characters

It's the author fault for failing to choose their mc wisely

Sorry I haven’t read all the comments, but it’s true that TGR is a good example of a well-written protagonist. The way it's written makes you feel part of the story, and you start to admire the MC. Also, it's a true protagonist because without him/her, the story wouldn’t exist in the first place

 

[Gone_Dead]

Wait until I release chapter 1 to The Dark Crown (and not just the current prologue) and you'll have a chance to see how a RPG game is supposed to be done, and how you can be extremely powerful without it being a power fantasy.
Also, I get you. It's not that you want a power fantasy, because what you are saying and asking for, is quite some ways different than thing like Dao or something.
Power fantasy is you being the strongest being in the story, and can do whatever you want.
But what you want, is to have the liberty to make your character how you wish, and still be competent enough, and strong enough at the end of the day, to have favourable moment in the story, and not being forced to go a specific route, so you can only then get the favourable outcomes. Because that's linear way of writing, where they give you the illusion of choice, when in reality there is none.
And sure, they may say that it's okay to fail with certain choices, and true, it is, but I think that, as a writer, you need to write things that you also don't want. At least that's what I do, and that's what I think everyone should do.
So just because you don't want to make MC a certain way, because of your personal preference, you need to take into account that some people would want to go that way, and so you write it. I understand that this leads to insane branching (too familiar with this, if my 470k word prologue without code is any indicator), but that's how IFs should be, and what makes them fun

If the game functions like a DnD RNG type of thing, then the game is not for the person talking about it, true, because from what I can tell, they would like some good ol regular RPG, something like the Souls games, but still. They didn't like how it was made, and they said that, and explained why. The thread is called "Stories that left you disappointed for a reason", so it fits the idea of the thread.
Though I think that you're missing their point. Their point was not that they're MC is just completely incompetent, but the fact that MC gets belittled and dragged around like a rag doll. That the MC lacks a spine, and that is used as a punching bag, without ever being offered a chance to step up for themselves. I think that that's the main problem that Gone_Dead is presenting, and not exactly the fact that it's not a power fantasy

Thats it. I did start by saying the MC was incompetent along with the rest of my concerns. I save scummed so much tried choosing different options but the outcome was not what i wanted (there was said outcome available but its hidden behind so many choices.) Then a few people helped me and i managed to find it. I have no problem with the MC taking L's narratively. If MC keeps winning, i would get disinterested. Whats the point if there's no challange? if there's no character development?. Like @LtheStoryteller said, my main concern is the MC has no personality. If the MC is a blank slate, you would do well to give the players the choices to mold them. But the Wayfarer MC is undecided whether they have personality or not. They are 30 years old and essentially a veteran Wayfarer roaming the world for the past 5 years hunting down monsters and what not, Yet they cant speak up to defend themself? The story is written in a way that MC must adhere to the whims of other characters like a drone. , I understand when you must force the narrative to move linear. But dont shackle the MC from giving the world a piece of their mind for like you said "the world screwing you over". I still like Wayfarer. I think the world the author crafted is immersive. And im still reading it. But i dont really like the MC, who's supposed my window to the world.

You can own the room and still be coerced into doing deeds for others. You say the only way to kill the count is by kissing his ***? the only way to gain favour with others is by kissing their ***? I disagree. Throughout the IF and im in Chapter 2, Not once is the MC in control of their immediate circumstance. Its always "You fluster" "You grit your teeth" "You curl you hands" "You shut your mount against angering them" but nothing of the sort is done by the other characters. Every single character gets the drop on us, they always outwit us, outcharm us, outtalk us. And when it happens? Its so clearly reitterated in second person text, like rubbing it on our face. You dont need to be physically powerful to feel satisfied. Just the ability to verbally take control of the room is enough. Thats what i mean by not being a doormat. You're forced to do their bidding yes, but make them squirm before you do their dirty work. Since the author doesnt give the MC of this liberty, i'm justified to assume that they care more about the other characters than the MC.

 

[Ireth313]

TGR is a good example of a well-written protagonist. The way it's written makes you feel part of the story, and you start to admire the MC.

See, that's where everyone's different because to me TGR's MC had the personality of carboard cutout and I got a feeling the author had more fun describing not even the other characters, but the world around the MC. But I won't get into it because my impression of TGR is 'read it once when it came out, cared so little I can't even remember 80% of it but my impressions at this point'.

that MC gets belittled and dragged around like a rag doll. That the MC lacks a spine, and that is used as a punching bag, without ever being offered a chance to step up for themselves. I think that that's the main problem that Gone_Dead is presenting, and not exactly the fact that it's not a power fantasy

Eh, you are right here. Tho, imo, a char being thrown around by the plot and world around them does have its place as a plot device. Considering the game is not even 1\3 way done, I am willing to give it a benefit of the doubt that it won't always be that way. But, yeah, the game has you starting in a bad place with only one somewhat unreliable and uninfluential ally. If I RPed in DnD in such a set up, I wouldn't make my char mouth off to people because it can backfire easily and quickly if you don't have any leverage (and the MC doesn't, yet). MC would be just barking when they can't bite anyone in a way that would hurt, so why bother? Yet I can understand that while I wouldn't want to RP it that way, someone might go for a diff approach. It's on the author to go and guess as many possible reactions people would want to have, but I've yet to see an IF that does that flawlessly. I remember Swen Vincke explaining that when they were working on BG3, they went around the studio and asked as many ppl as they could 'hey, what would you say\do in a situation X'? And, imo BG3 is a modern take on RPG with a great selection of reactions, but there still are people out there saying there is too little reactivity and there's no lines *they* would've wanted at certain plot points, so go figure. Not that I am saying that the Wayfarer is on the same level or scope.

tl;dr if you are a one-man\woman team, imo, accounting for all ways someone would want to RP in an IF is neigh impossible.

 

[Gone_Dead]

It’s boring to read about a protagonist who lacks personality and skills, and who is rescued, exploited or overshadowed by the supporting characters

It's the author fault for failing to choose their mc wisely

Sorry I haven’t read all the comments, but it’s true that TGR is a good example of a well-written protagonist. The way it's written makes you feel part of the story, and you start to admire the MC. Also, it's a true protagonist because without him/her, the story wouldn’t exist in the first place

Yes. I am always of the mind that the MC must drive the immediate story forward. That without the MC, the story would be vastly different. Without the MC, the story's supposed antagonists would have a very easier time to go about their agenda. This DOES not mean the MC is the most important character of the world, it just means that the MC is the most important character of the story.They are the 'Main character', not the 'Mid character'. TGR is the first IF which actually pushed me to finish the story because the characters and especially the MC was written so well. I was not a fan of the walls and walls of descriptive texts but i still barreled through it because the author nailed an aspect of the story which is very important to me. You can see that a segment of the MC's personality is set, but a generous sum of it is molded by the player. Whenever i wish to do something in response to a situation in the story within reason, i see that specific action listed as a choice and that always gave me immense satisfaction. It doesnt surprise me that Ana's favorite character is the MC because i can see it in the way they've written the story. TGR MC gets captured takes L's multiple times, scarred on their face and everytime you can feel you frustrations mirrored by the MC. Thats what i want. It makes them so much more relatable and human.

 

[isahale]

I mean different kinds of stories are best served by different types of protagonist and not all MC's are going to be the same style or type of protagonist because the world and story might not work with that type of protagonist. I think this is less of a quality argument and more a preference argument at it's root.

 

[jaded]

TGR MC gets captured takes L's multiple times, scarred on their face and everytime you can feel you frustrations mirrored by the MC. Thats what i want. It makes them so much more relatable and human.

I think the descriptio of the world or characters make sense and help draw you into the story. Anathema is a very good writer, and she’s quite perceptive about how the reader feels or reacts to the situations she writes about

I mean different kinds of stories are best served by different types of protagonist and not all MC's are going to be the same style or type of protagonist because the world and story might not work with that type of protagonist. I think this is less of a quality argument and more a preference argument at it's root.

You may like the MC (or not), but the basic rule is that the protagonist drives the plot through their decisions

It’s always been that way and always will be

 

[LtheStoryteller]

See, that's where everyone's different because to me TGR's MC had the personality of carboard cutout and I got a feeling the author had more fun describing not even the other characters, but the world around the MC. But I won't get into it because my impression of TGR is 'read it once when it came out, cared so little I can't even remember 80% of it but my impressions at this point'.



Eh, you are right here. Tho, imo, a char being thrown around by the plot and world around them does have its place as a plot device. Considering the game is not even 1\3 way done, I am willing to give it a benefit of the doubt that it won't always be that way. But, yeah, the game has you starting in a bad place with only one somewhat unreliable and uninfluential ally. If I RPed in DnD in such a set up, I wouldn't make my char mouth off to people because it can backfire easily and quickly if you don't have any leverage (and the MC doesn't, yet). MC would be just barking when they can't bite anyone in a way that would hurt, so why bother? Yet I can understand that while I wouldn't want to RP it that way, someone might go for a diff approach. It's on the author to go and guess as many possible reactions people would want to have, but I've yet to see an IF that does that flawlessly. I remember Swen Vincke explaining that when they were working on BG3, they went around the studio and asked as many ppl as they could 'hey, what would you say\do in a situation X'? And, imo BG3 is a modern take on RPG with a great selection of reactions, but there still are people out there saying there is too little reactivity and there's no lines *they* would've wanted at certain plot points, so go figure. Not that I am saying that the Wayfarer is on the same level or scope.

tl;dr if you are a one-man\woman team, imo, accounting for all ways someone would want to RP in an IF is neigh impossible.

Oh absolutely, I know first hand that it's impossible. But that's why you can give some "broader" answers, that could count for the category of how people might want to play.
For example, if you want to play a dick/God complex character, you don't have to give 10 answers for that specific character. One that fits that aloof category, along with some others where MC could be hurt or something, is fine if you ask me. But yeah, safe to say that it is impossible to account for anything, which just means that one has to be creative as to how they'll handle that, and the approach that I mentioned here is, I think, a good solution to it

You can own the room and still be coerced into doing deeds for others. You say the only way to kill the count is by kissing his ***? the only way to gain favour with others is by kissing their ***? I disagree. Throughout the IF and im in Chapter 2, Not once is the MC in control of their immediate circumstance. Its always "You fluster" "You grit your teeth" "You curl you hands" "You shut your mount against angering them" but nothing of the sort is done by the other characters. Every single character gets the drop on us, they always outwit us, outcharm us, outtalk us. And when it happens? Its so clearly reitterated in second person text, like rubbing it on our face. You dont need to be physically powerful to feel satisfied. Just the ability to verbally take control of the room is enough. Thats what i mean by not being a doormat. You're forced to do their bidding yes, but make them squirm before you do their dirty work. Since the author doesnt give the MC of this liberty, i'm justified to assume that they care more about the other characters than the MC.

Yeah, because raw power is not the only power measurement, which is something that I play a lot with in TDC. Sure, you may not be able to fight the count head on, BUT if you decide to, make sure that you give as good as you get. Or make multiple ways to kill him, like I don't know, manipulating others, setting something up, God knows. There are multiple ways that the same outcome can be done (killing the count), so I don't see why stick with the only one you want. Which all just leads me back to my argument about author writing something with an illusion of choice

TGR MC gets captured takes L's multiple times

I did not agree to this /j

Yes. I am always of the mind that the MC must drive the immediate story forward. That without the MC, the story would be vastly different. Without the MC, the story's supposed antagonists would have a very easier time to go about their agenda. This DOES not mean the MC is the most important character of the world, it just means that the MC is the most important character of the story.They are the 'Main character', not the 'Mid character'. TGR is the first IF which actually pushed me to finish the story because the characters and especially the MC was written so well. I was not a fan of the walls and walls of descriptive texts but i still barreled through it because the author nailed an aspect of the story which is very important to me. You can see that a segment of the MC's personality is set, but a generous sum of it is molded by the player. Whenever i wish to do something in response to a situation in the story within reason, i see that specific action listed as a choice and that always gave me immense satisfaction. It doesnt surprise me that Ana's favorite character is the MC because i can see it in the way they've written the story. TGR MC gets captured takes L's multiple times, scarred on their face and everytime you can feel you frustrations mirrored by the MC. Thats what i want. It makes them so much more relatable and human.

I am somewhat of that mind, but that's because I'm insane, and I'm creating the most insane type of thing ever.
For me, it's that MC is very important, but MC should create a story of their own. Like, the whole story and plot will go on it's own, but how it goes, the way it all ends up, is up to the MC. Hell, if MC even wants to follow the story or not. But as I said, that's just my magnum opus, but when it comes to regular stories, I agree with this.
MC should have their own personality, and be an influential piece within the story, and not just another NPC

I mean different kinds of stories are best served by different types of protagonist and not all MC's are going to be the same style or type of protagonist because the world and story might not work with that type of protagonist. I think this is less of a quality argument and more a preference argument at it's root.

Oh that's true, but when taken the majority of IFs/WIPs, usually the MC gets the short end of the stick (always gets the short end)

You may like the MC (or not), but the basic rule is that the protagonist drives the plot through their decisions

It’s always been that way and always will be

Pretty much the starting idea (the whole concept really) behind every IF ever. It's only in recent years that this has become something that it's vastly ignored

 

[God]

Oh absolutely, I know first hand that it's impossible. But that's why you can give some "broader" answers, that could count for the category of how people might want to play.
For example, if you want to play a dick/God complex character, you don't have to give 10 answers for that specific character. One that fits that aloof category, along with some others where MC could be hurt or something, is fine if you ask me. But yeah, safe to say that it is impossible to account for anything, which just means that one has to be creative as to how they'll handle that, and the approach that I mentioned here is, I think, a good solution to it

Yeah, because raw power is not the only power measurement, which is something that I play a lot with in TDC. Sure, you may not be able to fight the count head on, BUT if you decide to, make sure that you give as good as you get. Or make multiple ways to kill him, like I don't know, manipulating others, setting something up, God knows. There are multiple ways that the same outcome can be done (killing the count), so I don't see why stick with the only one you want. Which all just leads me back to my argument about author writing something with an illusion of choice

I did not agree to this /j

I am somewhat of that mind, but that's because I'm insane, and I'm creating the most insane type of thing ever.
For me, it's that MC is very important, but MC should create a story of their own. Like, the whole story and plot will go on it's own, but how it goes, the way it all ends up, is up to the MC. Hell, if MC even wants to follow the story or not. But as I said, that's just my magnum opus, but when it comes to regular stories, I agree with this.
MC should have their own personality, and be an influential piece within the story, and not just another NPC

Oh that's true, but when taken the majority of IFs/WIPs, usually the MC gets the short end of the stick (always gets the short end)

Pretty much the starting idea (the whole concept really) behind every IF ever. It's only in recent years that this has become something that it's vastly ignored

This is something I will never understand tbh. I always look at it this way, if I take the MC out of the story how does it change? In the last few years, that has flipped and it’s crazy how many people are okay with it. Like when I started reading IFs MC was the story. Why the hell do I want to play as a side character lmao, I’d just go read a book or something.

Let’s all be honest, these days most IFs are like look at my totally cool-perfect totally not self insert OC! I want to show them off.. so they throw together a MC they clearly don’t care about. You can tell when the MC is the author’s favorite character. It’s okay not to have the MC as your favorite, but they should feel important to you, sometimes I just wonder why not just write that novel you clearly envisioned.

I’m also a very picky person, and I hate 99% of IFs, so when one can draw my attention it really does. I just hate that people don’t hold the same thing to the side characters.

 

[LtheStoryteller]

This is something I will never understand tbh. I always look at it this way, if I take the MC out of the story how does it change? In the last few years, that has flipped and it’s crazy how many people are okay with it. Like when I started reading IFs MC was the story. Why the hell do I want to play as a side character lmao, I’d just go read a book or something.

Let’s all be honest, these days most IFs are like look at my totally cool-perfect totally not self insert OC! I want to show them off.. so they throw together a MC they clearly don’t care about. You can tell when the MC is the author’s favorite character. It’s okay not to have the MC as your favorite, but they should feel important to you, sometimes I just wonder why not just write that novel you clearly envisioned.

I’m also a very picky person, and I hate 99% of IFs, so when one can draw my attention it really does. I just hate that people don’t hold the same thing to the side characters.

No, I agree with you on this. And while I may not be as picky , I am still quite judgemental, mainly because I put those judgements on myself too, when creating a story.
The MC literally stands for MAIN CHARACTER. Sure, they may not start out as the strongest, or as this or as that, but the story is supposed to be the way it is because of them.
They aren't supposed to be just a side character so the actual side characters can shine all the time.

Like I genuinely understand that in IFs, it's way easier to create side characters that you like, because the MC is supposed to be a blank slate, which is then to be moulded by the player, so you can't really connect with that, but still, if the author cares about the MC, they will make the unique personalities which the player can choose, and they will make the MC just as cool and enjoyable as the rest of the cast.
At first, I didn't like creating aloof MC for my story, because they were being a dick for no reason whatsoever, but now as the story progresses, I'm having more and more time with that "villain" route, because actually choosing aloof options (such as magically rampaging and killing) actually gives you a bigger boost in magical powers, meaning you'll be able to improve faster in that route.
So yeah, there are ways to make things cool and good, but it's unfortunately as you said, usually writers care more about the side characters, because those are their OCs.

But the most confusing thing for me to understand, is also something you said here, and something that I pointed out a few times, but I don't understand why people just don't write regular books. It's waaaaay easier, and it would probably be better than the IF that one is writing, because there, you could have set characters, set story, set everything, and you wouldn't need to bother with many of the IF details. Like, I get you liking IFs, but that doesn't mean that you need to write one. You can write a book. I don't know, maybe I'm just nit-picking, but who knows

 

[yourstalkeroutside]

You can own the room and still be coerced into doing deeds for others. You say the only way to kill the count is by kissing his ***? the only way to gain favour with others is by kissing their ***? I disagree.

This is why everyone keeps saying you want a power fantasy. Let's lay down the scenario here, saying you got the chalice.

You have this insanely powerful character, not just magically but politically since he's the reason you couldn't find any other jobs in the city so you have to take his. After running around the city to get the chalice for the whole day, you're now exhausted (reflected in the game as a negative stat), you approach this super powerful character and just kill him without needing to do anything else.

They now fight their way out of Rona, flip off the only people offering them work and safety and somehow do all of this without major consequences (because that makes them incompetent somehow).

While I agree that people mix up wanting a competent protagonist and wanting a power fantasy, what you're asking for is a power fantasy.

 

[seneya]

you approach this super powerful character and just kill him without needing to do anything else.

That's what I was trying to get at.
Thought excercise: let's say a lvl 1 adventurer is facing a lvl 99 evil wizard. The wizard says, grovel at my feet or die from the Spell of Doom I have prepared.
Does the adventurer count as incompetent if their only way to survive is to grovel, which they do?
How can this scene be written for the adventurer to come off as "competent" if there's nothing they can do to the wizard?
Or is the power level difference by itself a problem that should be avoided? Or is it about the number of such situations? What about the zero-to-hero and underdog plots, where protags start out at the bottom?
Connected to the above, what about survival horror and other genres that rely on protag's lack of control/power?

 

[Zoklitsos]

Yes. I am always of the mind that the MC must drive the immediate story forward. That without the MC, the story would be vastly different. Without the MC, the story's supposed antagonists would have a very easier time to go about their agenda. This DOES not mean the MC is the most important character of the world, it just means that the MC is the most important character of the story.They are the 'Main character', not the 'Mid character'. TGR is the first IF which actually pushed me to finish the story because the characters and especially the MC was written so well. I was not a fan of the walls and walls of descriptive texts but i still barreled through it because the author nailed an aspect of the story which is very important to me. You can see that a segment of the MC's personality is set, but a generous sum of it is molded by the player. Whenever i wish to do something in response to a situation in the story within reason, i see that specific action listed as a choice and that always gave me immense satisfaction. It doesnt surprise me that Ana's favorite character is the MC because i can see it in the way they've written the story. TGR MC gets captured takes L's multiple times, scarred on their face and everytime you can feel you frustrations mirrored by the MC. Thats what i want. It makes them so much more relatable and human.

TGR is one of my favourite IFs of all time, even though I think a lot of the common criticisms are very valid (the first book feeling incomplete and having an abrupt ending, the excessive descriptions, etc). However, people can say what they will about it, but it's very clear that the author LOVES writing the MC, no matter the personality flavour you choose - sarcastic and snarky, stoic and reticent, and so on. You can see that even in the game itself, there's a genuine love and passion for the protagonist, not just the NPCs and romances. And the author herself has stated multiple times that her favourite character to write is the MC. That's one of the big reasons I've been a fan of TGR quite literally since the demo of the first came out, and will continue supporting it. Imo it's genuinely one of the best handled MCs - you're given just enough freedom to shape the MC however you want, but the MC is also just set enough to have a certain depth to them that you can't get with a total blank slate, it's a delicate balance and the author really pulls it off. And as you said, it's very clear that your character is... well, the MC, lol. And shocker omg but it's not a power fantasy lmao

 

[yourstalkeroutside]

Wait until I release chapter 1 to The Dark Crown (and not just the current prologue) and you'll have a chance to see how a RPG game is supposed to be done, and how you can be extremely powerful without it being a power fantasy.
Also, I get you. It's not that you want a power fantasy, because what you are saying and asking for, is quite some ways different than a thing like Dao or something.
Power fantasy is you being the strongest being in the story, and can do whatever you want.
But what you want, is to have the liberty to make your character how you wish, and still be competent enough, and strong enough at the end of the day, to have favourable moment in the story, and not being forced to go a specific route, so you can only then get the favourable outcomes. Because that's linear way of writing, where they give you the illusion of choice, when in reality there is none.
And sure, they may say that it's okay to fail with certain choices, and true, it is, but I think that, as a writer, you need to write things that you also don't want. At least that's what I do, and that's what I think everyone should do.
So just because you don't want to make MC a certain way, because of your personal preference, you need to take into account that some people would want to go that way, and so you write it. I understand that this leads to insane branching (too familiar with this, if my 470k word prologue without code is any indicator), but that's how IFs should be, and what makes them fun

If the game functions like a DnD RNG type of thing, then the game is not for the person talking about it, true, because from what I can tell, they would like some good ol regular RPG, something like the Souls games, but still. They didn't like how it was made, and they said that, and explained why. The thread is called "Stories that left you disappointed for a reason", so it fits the idea of the thread.
Though I think that you're missing their point. Their point was not that their MC is just completely incompetent, but the fact that MC gets belittled and dragged around like a rag doll. That the MC lacks a spine, and that is used as a punching bag, without ever being offered a chance to step up for themselves. I think that that's the main problem that Gone_Dead is presenting, and not exactly the fact that it's not a power fantasy

And what everyone's been trying to point out is that their arguments are based on wanting a power fantasy and then getting upset that it wasn't one.

Any other story I'd agree but Wayfarer doesn't count. Not when the entire reason why is explained in the story and mechanics.

I could understand disliking how MC behaves like a complete noob sometimes and behaves like a teenager especially when it comes to Aeran but their argument is based on not being able to whatever they want when they want to do it.

You can't kill (on your own) the powerful boss with making specific choices, you can't mouth off your (potential) employer (and she is unfortunately of them) without suffering consequences including the potential loss of your job that's gonna pay you enough to potentially retire and Qiqi's very introduction in the prologue was him rage baiting everyone.

You're treated badly by all the mages because it got established in the very prologue and constantly enforced that mages and wayfarers don't get along. Mages in the order have an ego problem and with the loss of the order, you no longer have any leverage against them. That and you're kinda trapped in their city with no way to get out without help (which means keeping your mouth shut until you get your money and are able to leave).

It feels like you can't do anything and everyone's trying to screw you over and walking all over you because that's exactly what's happening. That's the point, it's supposed to be frustrating.

There's many valid complaints about Wayfarer's story (hell I just gave one) but this one isn't one of them. It's completely based on wanting a power fantasy, not a competent or proactive protagonist(which how can you be when everyone's trying to screw you over or lying to you including those who's supposed to be on your side).

 

[seneya]

Imo it's genuinely one of the best handled MCs

Meanwhile, I'm lowkey tired of the angsty, damaged MCs that are ~so specul~ and whom ROs are supposed to pity and dote on. Mind you, TGR still has some of the best writing I have seen. But this setup is right below therapy speak among the things I really do not like.

 

[Ireth313]

everyone's trying to screw you over or lying to you including those who's supposed to be on your side

Not everyone. That one lady in Melchior's troupe that gets drunk\high with MC has zero mean motives and just wants to party! (also gives you free relationship advice if you bang Mel)

...but it does say a lot about the people MC is surrounded with because I had to think long and hard about a person who both wanted nothing to gain form MC and was nice.

 

[Gone_Dead]

This is why everyone keeps saying you want a power fantasy. Let's lay down the scenario here, saying you got the chalice.

You have this insanely powerful character, not just magically but politically since he's the reason you couldn't find any other jobs in the city so you have to take his. After running around the city to get the chalice for the whole day, you're now exhausted (reflected in the game as a negative stat), you approach this super powerful character and just kill him without needing to do anything else.

They now fight their way out of Rona, flip off the only people offering them work and safety and somehow do all of this without major consequences (because that makes them incompetent somehow).

While I agree that people mix up wanting a competent protagonist and wanting a power fantasy, what you're asking for is a power fantasy.

You're creating your story, making it seem like something i said and using it as counter statement. All you're saying is "you just want power fantasy" and you refuse to budge from that despite me explaining myself why it has nothing to do with power fantasy. I even gave a really good example using TGR. I really don't want to explain myself again. If that's what you get from the walls of text I wrote to explain myself, then I can't really say anything that'll convince you. @LtheStoryteller got my point and I hope others did too.